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Boeing Says Union Vote Will Decide Fate of Jobs

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Boeing Co. told political leaders in the Puget Sound on Monday that this week's vote by Machinists will determine the fate of some jobs on the new 777X airplane. In a press conference, local politicians gathered in Everett to discuss the importance of approving the revised contract offer. Boeing executive Ray Conner told the government leaders earlier in the day that an accepted contract will ensure that the wing work stays in the Puget Sound, but a vote to reject the deal will ensure the… (abcnews.go.com) 기타...

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grafael
An increase in the cost of labor without a corresponding increase in productivity or quality has always had the same result. To expect something different on this one occasion is denying reality.
BeechSportBill
...with Unions, it's really all about the UNION LEADERS - always pushing for more pay, so that the UNION DUES go up - payable to the UNION LEADERS, and the Union to use for political reasons.... They UNION LEADERS really could care LESS about the workers. But if Boeing pulls out, the UNION LEADERS will have golden parachutes, and move on to another worker group to exploit...
zcolescott
Did the local union leaders think that they were going to call Boeing's bluff? Hmm. A response from 22 other sites is a fairly large bargaining tool I'd say.
preacher1
They apparently did and as I said, the proof will be in the vote to see if they had a change of heart
preacher1
Connor made it clear to take it or leave it so we'll see
BluegrassFlyer
What happened in 2006 is still fresh on the minds of the Boeing Execs. The strike cost them dearly and it cost them customers. South Carolina will most likely get the 777X if things don't look favorable for Washington. That issue was discussed in 2010 so Boeing has everything all laid out one way or the other.
preacher1
Tis good that there will be another chance for the machinist's to vote again. Boeing did not have to allow it. That said, I think I think it is an indication that Boeing does not really want to move but if it is rejected again, they will have no choice and I figure South Carolina is at the top of the list.
canuck44
canuck44 7
Boeing should have jumped at the chance to move...this is like sticking with an old girl friend because she just had a facelift and her boobs hoisted. The same basic personality underlies the veneer and the cosmetics will fall away. Better to take the chance to start over in a right to work state.
preacher1
The vote will be interesting.
preacher1
preacher1 -3
That facelift and them boobs look good on the front end though. LOL
BluegrassFlyer
Yeah but what about the rest? LOL
pkuhns
The fixed pension concept started sublimating in the early nineties. It's beyond amazing it still exists anywhere in our culture.

All you union members and bureaucrats really should be thanking your lucky stars you've had this dinosaur pension concept all these years. It's over. Finally...
preacher1
What I really think is misunderstood here is just what they are doing pension wise. As I understand the thing, there is a feeling that what they have will be gone, but I don't think that is correct. It is just that going forward, in a nutshell, they will go to a 401K. This will not only allow them to manage it themselves, but should they pass early or leave Boeing, it is theirs. I am assuming that at some point and time, that assets from their pension plan will be folded in here as ours were(I went thru this in 1994, after starting in 1973). One big thing, and this I don't know, but as the plan was set up, is if a company match is mandatory or not, and it is as simple as the words WILL or MAY, as they are taken literally in the eyes of the IRS which has the governing law as to how they will be structured, WILL being a requirement to match whatever amount named and may leaves the discretion to the company. By paying attention to it and risking a little every now and then, mine came out better than 30% more than what the straight pension would have been had it remained in effect, and even if left alone, it is going to make money, as the plan company is in business to make money as well.
preacher1
Two other things to note is that there is no tax paid until withdrawn BUT the most important is that were it a company pension plan, more than likely it would stop at my death. What is in this 401K is mine and will be long to my estate. I like that.
captainjman
The part that I don't like is that upper management at companies like this - and maybe it's not the case here - but often it is - that the upper management get millions in bonuses as the compensation , yearly or in the form of pensions continue to diminish. And while I am all for a free economy - it is large corporations, K street, wall street and those in power that seem to have gained the biggest portion of the american dream starting in the 1970's. There used to be an unwritten rule that a CEO for instance would earn 20x or 40 times what the average employee earns.. is that the fact today? No- not usually.. these days it can be upwards of a thousand times. The Leadership of these companies used to make more - but it was reasonable.. and if you were to distribute what they earned over all the employees it wouldn't account to much... nowadays you see CEO's making so much that if you distributed it among all employees it would nearly double their income. That is not right. And while you can say what "there's the door if you don't like it, you can leave" - can you really? I mean it - where can you go these days? There aren't a lot of companies that care about their employees anymore.. it used to be a thing of pride to show how well off the workers are at your company - to visit their homes for dinner and give them promotions - and the last thirty years we have seen less and less of that -

And all this coming from a Right winger like myself - why? because it has been highway robbery for such a huge portion of the population. These days 50% of the wealth in the US is owned by just a couple hundred families. Thats crazy given how much people are in dire need.

One last thing - Lets say you have a mortgage... do you think the bank will let you pay less because you say you have to or you will default? But, you tell them, if you don't let me pay you 75% of what I promised you, I will be forced to be homeless - does that bank say - OK, NO PROBLEM, SURE, WHATEVER YOU NEED... just please please pay me whatever you can? No - of course not. The bank says "you entered into this agreement with these premisses and you will continue to pay as agreed or else". Because that is what is fair - if you enter an agreement for employment and are PROMISED a certain compensation for that work - you can't go back and say I am not going to pay you that anymore.... no, sorry, that just isn't right. Yes, they could just declare bankruptcy and do whatever they want these days because the BK laws are being abused - but it's not right.

Funny how the same population that demands that employees take pay cuts - against their contracts would be unwilling to have the contracts they hold changed to suit someone else. It's a double standard that must end. Because it's fair.... being a right winger doesn't mean you are pro business- it means you are pro fairness, pro-people working for a living, pro-flat tax .... not K street financed tax loopholes... thats just sickening.
preacher1
This is well written Jason and cannot really be added to except to say that it all started changing in the early 80's with the days of junk bonds providing quick and easy cash for a few unscrupulous people to screw the rest of society.
captainjman
I was born in 76, by the time I entered the job market at age 6 (when I started my first business believe it or not) it was already down hill, we just didn't know it yet. I really wish the republican party which I believed in so much would really back a flat tax that we all pay - fair and easy - but these days those fat cats don't want fairness when they know they can rig the system.. I wish the tour of DC when you are in Jr High showed you the real DC - starting on K street and ending at wall street (figurative)
bsbaker1
Fair Tax all the way.
grafael
The dole doesn't cost the government. It costs the worker. The government has no money of its own. It takes from those who work to give to those who don't. So @Bill, with that standard reasoning, why should anyone work at all? As for outsourcing, the real competition to Boeing is Aerospatial or Ermbrauer. That's who Boeing Management has to compete with. So blame the airlines in the USA who choose to buy at a more competitive price.
LordLayton
The union needs to ask itself this: Is the union here because Boeing is here or is Boeing here because the union is here?......... If they vote it down the union will change it's name to "the onion" because there will be a lotta cryin goin on.
66lima
IF it doesn't say Boeing, I'm not going.
Screw these foreign manufacturers.
devsfan
Looks like the Union is going to screw this up..Next stop, Charleston, SC..
Oh, those pensions? Kiss 'em good bye. No longer sustainable.
Doobs
Update: Machinists have voted to accept Boeings latest 777X contract proposal!!! Aerospace is alive and well in the Pacific Northwest!
Smart move you guys!
Doobs
In addition- Everett, WA has every facility to build this bird except for an advanced manufacturing building in which to produce the 777X's 114-foot-long wing. That can be taken care of by constructing a facility on site, at the end of Paine Field. The expenditure needed to create a new facility will only be the beginning of Boeing's investment. There are 225 new orders for the 777X from 3 Airlines from the Dubai Airshow! In my opinion, that is just a piece of the pie. This airplane is going to break out of the gate and be a winner.
StuckMike
Ahem. http://www.forbes.com/companies/boeing/ Revenue=US$82B, Profit=US$4Billion.
StuckMike
Also: http://www.npr.org/2013/12/30/258387962/boeing-soars-despite-a-turbulent-2013

Interesting comments following the article.
picklojohn
Hey Boeing, Airbus sells Airplanes too. Hey UNIONS..... lets get real !
commanchepilot
I hope they don't cave in. Boeing has shown they don't care for their Seattle workers in previous plane builds. Lets put the jobs in real America not liberal seattle.. Put them in duck dynasty territory where the Lord is still respected!
jamesds
I don't know how many of the people posting here are working for the airlines, however, if any of you are here is a question. Would you want your union rights abolished? Would you want your salary slashed? The question here is that Boeing is willing to shed union employees in favor of non-union employees. My case more specifically is aimed at the salaries being offered to the engineers. At the same time, Boeing gets its C-level employee salaries subsidized by the taxpayers and at the same time they are continually reducing salaries and employee rights.
preacher1
Not working for the Airlines but regarding your one comment about how would we like it, Pilot's and all employees have seen a reduction / slashing of their salaries and benefits from all the legacies over the years as they have progressed thru the various mergers and bankruptcies. There ain't a thing right about it but in the case of Boeing, they are trying to head off that scenario, and all I can say is that there are real world examples out there for folks to see, if they'll just look for themselves instead of listening to somebody yell how bad it is that doesn't give a tinkers damn about them.
Navy65
Navy65 0
Goodbye IAM...and good riddance
commanchepilot
It is simple arithmetic, buy American and create a job, buy foreign lose jobs. Look at your stuff, does it say made in USA? If not YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. Nobama's military is buying Russian jets for Afghan, Our tax money, paid by American workers going to RUSSIA, not put back into the system for American workers. Democrats today are not for American Workers.
commanchepilot
How was the quality of outsourcing on the 787? How many orders canceled? Reputation suffered? American productivity is not the problem, it is Boeing Management. The trend in America now is to denigrate labor. Half the country ain't working, jobs are gone, half the country can't buy the products. Half the country wants the working part of the country to give them handouts. Pretty soon it won't pay to work for the average worker, might as well be on the dole.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
That attitude is why so many are.
jeffreyh8020
Yall are all people that don't work for the Boeing company. If you don't know anything except what the news say, h should talk. You don't know all that's on the table, nor do you know anything bout the excellent skilled workforce that is delivering airplanes on time. Were Charleston hasnt. Yes we might be greedy in the Pudget Sound, but you pay for what you get. That's why they came back with a revised offer, they have faith that we can build the airplane right and on time.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 10
Building it right and on time? Maybe that's why they're moving to Charleston...

[This poster has been suspended.]

preacher1
ditto. I really hope he didn't have a hand in our 767
BeechSportBill
...with Unions, it's really all about the UNION LEADERS - always pushing for more pay, so that the UNION DUES go up - payable to the UNION LEADERS, and the Union to use for political reasons.... They UNION LEADERS really could care LESS about the workers. But if Boeing pulls out, the UNION LEADERS will have golden parachutes, and move on to another worker group to exploit...
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 0
You don't have to spell to torque a wrench. I'm sure jeffrey didn't realize there'd be a spelling nazi reading his post. Good spelling doesn't necessarily make a good mechanic, nor does it prevent one from being a snob.
preacher1
Well, while we may not work there, we probably know a little more than what is printed in the newspaper. As far as knowing what is on the table, I have a nice copy in my document file here in my computer. If you would like me to forward it to you, please provide an Email address. In reviewing it and the original, I really cannot see a whole lot of difference between the 2. You folks will have to make up your own mind about what to do and be grateful that Boeing gave you a 2nd chance to vote. They did not have to, BUT, by having 20+ proposals on the table to move the work, if ya'll turn it down again, Connor has said they will move it. They are past the bluffing stage. This 777 work is just sorta the tip of the iceberg. If they move it, and it is successful, in years to come, other work will follow.
skylloyd
skylloyd 3
If you have a copy of the new contract, please send it to all the Boeing 751 employees, because they don't. That has been one of the problems in the past votes, they don't know what is in the contract until the day of the vote.
preacher1
I guess I would if I knew where to send it, but that said, that problem is listening to their union leadership, blind leading the blind. It should be readily available from the union or Boeing. I am not anti-union but I have this thing about speaking for myself and if they are interested in facts, there should be enough gumption there to seek out the truth themselves, rather than just take somebody's word for your livelihood.
preacher1
It has to be available out there somewhere; according to another post here on FA, there is a group or 2 pushing for it and trying to EXPLAINING it. I guess we'll find out tomorrow night.
devsfan
Oh please spare us the "you will kneel at the union altar" nonsense.
Do not delude yourself into believing that the presence of a union card somehow makes a better employee.
firsq
Right to work state are you kidding? Really the right for the company to pay you less in wages, benefits and job security. FYI CEO's by lunch time Monday have already earned more than the average worker in the US and Canada will earn all year!!!
devsfan
I suppose you buy into the notion that union membership in right to work states is illegal..
Right to work....Simply defined....A worker cannot be compelled to join a labor collective nor can he/she be compelled to pay union dues as a prerequisite to employment.
More often than not large firms actually pay workers at or slightly over union scale as an incentive to stay union free,
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
The only employees benefitting from a union are senior employees. All the others are just doling out the bucks for the privilege of belonging to the union. Zero benefit.

Plus, all a "right to work" state means is you have a choice as to whether or not you want to belong to the union and should you decide to resign from the union the company can't fire you for that choice. And by the way, railway and airline employees are not protected by state Right to Work laws.
preacher1
Don't knock it until you have tried it. When you factor in cost of living and quality of life, it's pretty dang good money.
preacher1
As far as the CEO salary, while they may be excessive, some would say that the rank and file is excessive too for what they do. The CEO is the one responsible for garnishing up enough business to keep the plants running and union workers working

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