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Lion Air and Boeing Are Heading Into a $22 Billion Feud

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The crash of a Boeing Co. plane that killed 189 people in Indonesia is spiraling into a $22 billion feud between the aircraft maker and one of Asia’s most influential aviation bosses. In a rare public dispute between the planemaker and one of its biggest customers, the head of PT Lion Mentari Airlines has threatened to cancel an order for billions of dollars worth of jets because of what he says is Boeing’s unfair reaction to the crash. (www.bloomberg.com) 기타...

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MikeinKyiv
Mike Lynn 13
Just the facts please! Asian airlines need to get over trying to save face and run an airline properly; Boeing needs to stop posturing like a peacock in this case. We all look forward to a factual evaluation of what happened in this most unfortunate situation.
viki007
Wow, everyone is an expert. How can you pass judgement before getting facts. Let’s get the facts and then come to a conclusion.
bsampson
Now, what fun is that
rlbarnard
Within a few minutes, the pilots had countered movement by the MCAS system at least 26 times before the aircraft’s crash.
leadsfore
Very true Jeffrey.
rlbarnard
The aircraft had problems in 4 of it's last 6 flights, Lion Air made the decision to use the aircraft despite of the problems. 3 of the flight crews knew what to do to correct the problem
linbb
linbb 5
Sounds like they may have trouble proving Boeing did anything wrong but want to squeeze them on there order of airplanes. SSDD just like the airline who tried the same when they couldn't figure out how to keep there 787s flying.

This was an error on the airlines part when they didn't replace the failing part and test fly it.
jeffbeaumont
Are these facts or speculations?
Moviela
The problem Asia wide is a lack of training, and finding qualified pilots for the geometric increase in flights in the region.

They learn how to fly the airplane. They can often quote lines from the manual, but they learn by rote and have no critical examination skills. That is why when an airplane does not perform properly an incident turns into a disaster.
aghume
Alan Hume 10
The pilot had 5,000 hours and the co-pilot about 3,500 hours. Hardly inexperienced. Though I am willing to concede that they may not have been sufficiently trained on the changes in operation of the B-737MAX over the previous models.
ewrcap
That is really not a lot of time for a senior airline crew but enough. The real question is “Have they just been lucky for 3,000 hours?” The Asiana crew that crashed in SFO had a lot of flight time and no crashes but were idiots as soon as the autopilot was switched off. Also, the two previous crews experienced the same problem and handled it just fine.
jpanderson
I am an avid aviation enthusiast and benefit from my son being a Airbus A-320 pilot.I have flown with him in a Citation 10,King Air 350,Meridian and just about every turbo prop and piston engine plane in the sky. When I asked him what the heck happened on this flight his first comment was training is everything when flying.Having retired from Law Enforcement I thoroughly understand human nature to pass judgement before having all the facts.Let the experts figure this out while the families of this horrible accident get the help they need to ease their suffering.
jet4ang
jet4ang 2
They haven't even found the other black box as far as I know! WTF?
mikeosmers
I know, what’s up with that? Anyone know what the issue is?
cpergiel
The aircraft crashed in the ocean. They are lucky that they were able to recover any parts of it. Meanwhile, I hear that the black box was eaten by a shark who is now halfway to South America.
mikeosmers
Ok Chuck that was just silly. The aircraft crashed just off the coast of Jakarta in relatively shallow water. The FDR was recovered in deep mud and it’s thought the FDR suffered the same fate and as of yesterday a specialized Dutch recovery ship began the search again.
cpergiel
Yeah, yeah, they're looking for the cockpit voice recorder, but I like my shark story better. And "relatively shallow" could mean almost anything.
Lneward
On this forum, no matter how experienced we are, and no matter what the previous history of the participants (Boeing, Lion, crew) we can, at best, only speculate because we don't have good, complete data. Of the information that is actually, publicly available, it seems that Lion's threat is a pretty empty one--if they cancel those orders, what are they going to do for aircraft? Airbus is fully booked for years to come, so unless there's some major disruption to Airbus' production plans, there may be no other alternatives available.
cgraydon
This could and should of been designed out of the plane , you need to blame the Manufacture who designed this if it was a C series you bet that every one including Boeing would be all over this !
R123154
My thoughts are that there is only one thing Lion Air wants , it's that Boeing take on all the cost relating to this crash .This airline does not have a good safety record to start with.
jeffbeaumont
Then why are they not grounded? Who is paying who off?
rsiska
Ro Si 3
Those money needs to be split between families left behind. Their lives changed forever by something that was designed to save lives, not to take.
lecompte2
lecompte2 -3
Very poor design
chalet
chalet 4
Like I said before, both sides have very strong arguments and the respective outside lawyers are sallivating at the fees to be earned over the next say 5 years going on to 10?.
jeffbeaumont
Money, money, money. Lawyers and huge corporations, all feeding at the trough of swill and spoils of a tragedy. The average person has no clue what is going on, and no opportunity to be heard or truly represented. We have evolved into a culture that has no relationship to the value of life or the loss and distress to the families and friends of the victims of this incident.
SonnyRaburn
The real looser out of all of this is: We passengers! We are the ones that will have to pay in the long run, no mater who is at fault.
lecompte2
Everyone here seems to want to blame "the part" when in fact it is a design flaw from Boeing.
Highflyer1950
Can’t really agree with that statement because Boeing is still delivering new Max’s all around the world. However, inadequate training and systems understanding will and always will be the biggest culprit in these types of accidents.
lecompte2
Ask any pilot if its a good thing to have a control system that is pro active and inputs commands to the controls of an aircraft. Some aircraft have systems that prevent pilots from exceeding certain limits but this is different. Most crashes are caused by more than one failure as in this event, the design of the control system paired with a sensor failure required immediate pilot action where training or communication might have contributed to the final result. Sometimes when engineers try to help pilots too much, they do the opposite.
wozzlegummich
"losing face" is more important in Southeast Asian society than actually getting to the root of the issue. And a nice fat lawsuit says they are standing by their convictions. They will never learn from their mistakes.
redrattler47
All you so-called experts out there....very quick to place blame for a tragedy. Airline, Boeing or a combination of both? Wait for the full facts to be known before airing your opinions.
allank
People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who do ;)
Shiddelston
To be honest I’d trust the opinions and comments by flight crew on here long before the posturing/ legal opinions of the “experts”
kaostill
hear hear. just too many experts commenting
450kts
To comment or not to comment....I agree that passing judgement before all the facts are analyzed can some times be most impertinent. However, in this case the details like QNH, braking action and runway in use is probably not of much significance. There is a lot of experienced and knowlegable people out here, and when we read in fora like here, an aviator or not, can get a picture of some likely scenarios leading up to such a disaster. The commission will hopefully find the true cause and effects in due course.
jeffbeaumont
I think the key word on your comment is "due course" This tragedy will drag on and on for years with no concern for the families of the victims. How about changing the rules? have both the airline and Boeing put about $500 million each into an account, divide it among the victims families and when they come up with the answer ask the families to give a portion back. Use the same lawyers discussing the tragedy and representing the airline and Boeing to determine how much each family should give back. We might see a faster solution.
SteveCutchen
It would certainly be inappropriate for actual investigators to speculate publicly. But in a forum like this— with knowledgeable folks interpreting public information, and with caveats that we all realize there is more data to come—it can be informative and can stimulate safety awareness.
Panulirus
Had one really hot landing with Lion Air a couple of years ago and now would avoid them at any cost.
dayjacob313
The pilots should have of shut of the failed stall protection system that caused the plane to crash.
Blakarabian
They need to service their Plane before taking off.
josephdwood3
Joe Wood 1
Aircraft manufactured in this day and age can pretty much fly themselves from departure to arrival. The need for human beings on the flight deck is to monitor systems and troubleshoot anomalies. While hand flying skills are important, systems knowledge is imperative. You cannot exercise efficient CRM if you are ignorant to the function and details of all systems design and integration. While I pray for their souls and do not question the crews reactions in a extremely stressful moment, I am troubled that this fault occurred previously and was recognized and dealt with on previous flights. The fact that the problem still existed and the aircraft was cleared to fly lies with Lion Air.
GHG41
Well said Mike....
vulcancruiser
Sum Ting Wong
Commander416
Racist comments aren’t helpful... ever.
Lneward
Agreed and amen.
saso792
saso792 4
While I agree the remark wasn't helpful, it was not racist by dictionary definition.
FoxyFlyDay
He was referencing KTVUs TV flop when they reported on the Asiana flight. He's not being racist, just off-topic.
trumpeter27
Link is broken
indy2001
indy2001 -1
This is at least the 5th squawk about Lion Air canceling 737 orders, and that's not counting a dozen other articles about the crash and Lion Air's poor safety record. Enough already!

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