← Back to Squawk list

37

Boeing Officially(ish) Rebrands The 737 MAX

6달 전 제출됨

Boeing has today announced an order for up to four Boeing 737 jets by Polish airline Enter Air. Yes, the airline is ordering Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft, but that’s not how they’re being described. These planes are being described as Boeing 737-8 aircraft. This is clearly part of a very slow and subtle rebranding exercise for the troubled jet. (onemileatatime.com) 기타...

Roger Anderson

93 멤버 코멘트

Sort type: [Top] [Newest]

dee9bee 6달 전 13

I'm old enough to remember the Lockheed L188 Electra. It was renamed (sort of) as the Electra II once it's problem was corrected. History repeats itself...

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Michael McMurtrey 6달 전 8

And it was a good airplane after the fix. Unfortunately, renaming it did not reassure the flying public.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

cypryfyx 6달 전 2

I used to do airport advisory at an airport with a provincial forestry service base, and every year, they stationed an Aero Commander spotter and Electra air tanker there. They didn’t spend much time parked and in three years I don’t remember them ever going mechanical. What a machine that was!

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Cid Silveira 6달 전 3

And, I must say, the Electra II became a very safe airplane.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

ImperialEagle 6달 전 2

Yes, and many airlines were loath to retire them including Eastern, who was a launch customer, and kept theirs (flying passengers) until 1977.
Reeve carried cargo and passengers in Alaska until March of 1999.
Varig carried passengers in Brazil until January of 1999 .

Pretty impressive.

The excuse for retirement was "propeller and engine maintenance has become too expensive and parts are in short supply".
Really?
What about all those many hundreds of C-130's and P-3"s?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

LowOrbitTraveler01 6달 전 1

What was the a/c problem?
I flew L188 out of Boston in 1966 as FO and FE.
The initial training full stall and then full power blowing the stall off the wing was impressive.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Peter Fuller 6달 전 2

In 1960 two crashes of L188 Electras were determined to have been caused by structural failure, in which engine mount vibrations in the outer nacelles (#1 and #4) caused resonant flutter in the outer wing panels broke the wings. Lockheed modified the whole fleet to eliminate the flaw, but the plane’s reputation was ruined and new orders dried up as a result.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

ImperialEagle 6달 전 1

New orders dried up because, by then, the airlines had learned their mistake. By 1960 it was already clear that the flying public did not want to see propellers---period!

Once the 707 and DC-8 made jet travel accessible to the masses it was all over.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

LowOrbitTraveler01 6달 전 1

Wow! Including 707 in the conversation brings good memories. 54 years ago. So long on the a/c qualified on all 3 seats.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

ImperialEagle 6달 전 2

Lockheed seemed to have issues with flutter, back in the day. They always were pushing the envelope on speed. Speed, was their selling-point.
So the L-18, and P-38 suffered flutter issues.
Then a tiny mathematics error led to a situation where the engine nacelle and wing could reach the same frequency.
Which caused a chain reaction. A weakened nacelle could not contain Propeller Auto-Procession resulting in the Dynamic Coupling of the wing and subsequent failure.

To their credit, Lockheed set up a modification program and all the aircraft that had been built were sent through the modification factory at great expense to Lockheed.
In spite of all the nasty litigation that followed the BN and NW crashes, at least the aviation industry knew that Lockheed had immense integrity.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Lance Neward 6달 전 2

Question: Isn't it precession? As in the propeller "disk" began to precess, like a toy gyroscope precessing as it slows down?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Lance Neward 6달 전 2

Further, as it happens, I understand the frequency of the precession was a harmonic of the wing's natural frequency and therefore amplified the forces until structural failure. I've got about 1,500 hours in the P-3A and B, and so had a keen interest in what happened.

I always found it to be a great airplane, with exception of its pitch stability due to the Navy's reduction in fuselage length (we had noticable problems with airsickness, since the operating crew sat sideways) and its stiff landing gear, which made it a challenge to land smoothly.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

dee9bee 6달 전 1

I'd have to go back and read up. Late author Bob Serling wrote an an entire book about it, "The Electra Story" and devoted a whole chapter in another book, "Loud and Clear".

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

ImperialEagle 6달 전 1

Correction: On the previous reply the third sentence should begin with "On the L-188 a tiny mathematics error"-----

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

LowOrbitTraveler01 6달 전 1

Thanks for the information.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

mbrews 6달 전 9

- Not a surprise they're dropping MAX designation in this order announcement. Unforch, the words "737 MAX " are painted on the livery of many completed MAXes. The revisionist history begins now.

An open question : For the previously built planes, what's the model description on the official title and financial / leasing documents ?? I don't know the answer, but would be curious to find out.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Silent Bob 6달 전 5

On my company’s OpSpecs its 737-8, so my guess is the same for official documents.

I highly doubt going forward any airline will keep the “Max” designation in terms of public branding. Since they’re not flying right now anyway it’s a good time to remove any Max logos. It’s already gone from our safety cards which were the same for the -800 and Max.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 3

So are they still going to keep the same aircraft type, as far as flight plans go? They can't use B738 because of the -800s, which is why they went with B38M for the MAX8.

Also, subsequently, the MAX9 is also going to be affected. They can't use B739 because of confusion with the -900s. B39M was used for the MAX9. So any idea on what they'll use for filing flightplans?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

David Hale 6달 전 2

The people that are using B38M to file flight plans probably don’t care what it’s called.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 1

It may when the media looks at an incident, and someone savvy in the media looks at the flight plan to see what aircraft type was used between departure and destination, sees the aircraft type, and links it back to the MAX. then the renaming convention becomes controversy again.

my point here is that if they're going to rename it, then they need to give it a new type altogether and get rid of the stigma on the MAX everywhere it is mentioned or referenced.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Julius Thompson 6달 전 13

I would very happily fly on the 737 MAX. With all the testing and everything else they have done with these aircraft you can bet there will be absolute safety in abundance!!

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

wiregold 6달 전 2

The centroid of the MAX jet is just wrong. It reminds me of when I saw the first Ford Explorer. I thought it was a roll-over waiting to happen with its narrow wheel base and large body.
Even with the most flattering perspective of a MAX in flight, it just looks like a stall waiting to happen.
On the runway the MAX looks almost comical.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Christopher Sargeant 6달 전 2

Of course! The government may be very incompetent, but the one thing they're good at is guaranteeing your safety and security!

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Tom Pera 6달 전 1

I'll wait until you return Julius

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Mark Kortum 6달 전 -5

Before you fly on one make sure to get the Russian Coronavirus vaccine.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

J B 6달 전 5

Might try "Boeing 737-FLY"

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

jbermo 6달 전 8

All forgotten in time - as many pax flying today cannot tell the difference between a Boeing and an Airbus.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Gary Bain 6달 전 3

Nor do they care.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Atanu Dey 6달 전 2

jbermo, you are absolutely right. I get shocked quite often at how little people know or care about the plane they are on.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

zacky53 6달 전 10

Just because some people didn't have the competence or the proper training to fly it, doesn't mean the MAX is an unsafe airplane, specially after all the fuss and scrutiny it went thru. I'd fly it anytime. Usually media ignorance and sensationalism is responsible for misleading the public regarding flight safety.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

LowOrbitTraveler01 6달 전 5

I also agree. Boeing a/c are all over my logbook except for 737. Watching the slow progress to automation flying concerned me as well. As I recall reaching over to stab trim cutout switches gave time to evaluate and manually trim stab.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

layman85 6달 전 6

Boeing didn’t disclose anything to pilots about the MCAS. Pilots shouldn’t have the wool pulled over their eyes by a manufacturer. It really doesn’t matter what passports they carried- they and their passengers would probably still be here if they’d have had an opportunity to understand the system.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

JMARTINSON 6달 전 4

False. System Differences Manual, January 2017, Page 748.

And by the way, by the time the second plane crashed six months later, EVERYONE knew what MCAS was.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

William Monti 6달 전 5

So how come US branded 737MAX’s did not crash ? Competent pilots I suspect.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 4

You seem to forget that there was a -MAX issue with SWA at KMCO. They were damned lucky that they didn't crash. Nothing to do with the pilots at that point, as it was entirely the aircraft that had the problem.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 2

If those pilots were able to recover, then what kept the accident pilots from doing the same?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 1

weight of the aircraft could have played a factor. SWA8701 was effectively an empty aircraft, only carrying fuel so it could make it to KVCV. LIO610 and ETH610 were revenue flights, with the extra weight of luggage, etc., that could have played into altering the center of gravity which was already off because of the design of the B38M. That cascades down to altering the Angle of Attack, which cascades down to how MCAS responded to it.

Additionally, it was definitely an engine-related issue with SWA8701, whereas it was MCAS on LIO610 and ETH610.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 1

Longer variants of the 737 MAX have been reported as more stable than shorter variants; if weight and balance made a difference, then the longer variants should be less stable than the shorter variants.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 1

Both the B38M and B39M had the same CoG issues. The B10M (-MAX10) has a longer fuselage, which did not have to account for the CoG being off, like the B38M and B39M.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

JMARTINSON 6달 전 1

Southwest lost an engine, which had absolutely nothing to do with MCAS. They were completely separate and unrelated problems, and suggesting otherwise is less than honest.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 2

I agree. However, it is just as less as honest to blame pilots from other countries as being the problem to LIO610 and ETH610; like SWA8701, the aircraft had a problem, not the pilots, and that is regardless of what the actual problem was. Both involved the B38M, which is the crux of the matter.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Robert Nelson 6달 전 0

High altitude and or hot airports....both crashes fit this situation. Boeing used this argument when complaining about the Bombardier C Series. Or maybe they told the american companies about MCAS....who knows...

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Matthias Reinhold 6달 전 4

We were lucky!

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

William Monti 6달 전 0

Luck is not an attribute assigned to seasoned, well trained, skilled pilots.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Rich Boddy 6달 전 -2

This is peak autism at its finest.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 0

The negative aspects of it, anyway.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Adi Rabadi 6달 전 2

Just a tiny problem - took a year of design and test to fix. Good logic. Grounded entire fleet worldwide. I would hope conspiracy theories would not infiltrate 'intelligent' pilot communities - but it has.

There was a huge safety issue with the MAX. Stop sugar coating it.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

William Monti 6달 전 2

zacky53 my sentiments exactly. That is why no American flagged MAX never crashed. Good pilots that were well trained and very inquisitive.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 3

You almost failed here. and you're lucky that the aircraft had just left KMCO. But look up SWA8701.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 1

The fact that the pilots were able to prevent a crash proves that the plane isn't completely unflyable.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Adi Rabadi 6달 전 3

The idea that the plane should want to crash itself but the pilots have to work to save it from doing so. What logic are you applying to your comment?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 1

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawmanFallacy

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Brad Littlejohn 6달 전 3

preventing a crash and dealing with the MCAS/Center of Gravity/Angle of Attack issues are not necessarily mutually inclusive. SWA8701 was an engine related issue, which they were lucky to have just taken off from KMCO and were able to return before the issue got worse.

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/03/27/southwest-737-max-makes-immediate-emergency-landing

Additionally, SWA8701 was a ferry flight from MCO to KVCV so the aircraft could be stored, not a revenue-generating flight. Because of that, all that were onboard were the Captain, FO, and fuel to make the flight. Now, imagine if any additional luggage, pax, etc playing a part in the weights that could alter that CG that contributes to a higher AoA.. something that MCAS was supposed to prevent, but didn't with LIO610 and ETH610.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

KatzyBaby 6달 전 1

What percentage equals "completely"? 99%, 80%, 20%. I believe passengers prefer 100% flyable.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 0

Nothing is 100% flyable.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Gary Bain 6달 전 1

I agree Zacky53.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

wiregold 6달 전 1

A single point failure brought a plane down. That is unconscionable and on Boeing. They designed it and crammed it down the FAA's wide-open throat.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

cypryfyx 6달 전 4

Nice try Boeing, but you’ve got a lot of work to get as good at post-disaster rebranding as Morton-Thiokol-ATK-Orbital or whatever they’re named this week.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

ADXbear 6달 전 7

Putting lipstick on a pig does not change the pig to something else..

Putting scalloped engines and sharklets on the wings are easy ways to tell.. lower my forward engine mounting etc..

I resent an attempt to dum down the public.. I still say.. have all the major pilot unions come out very publically endorsing the airplane and willingness to fly them..

That will make the public feel better..

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

JMARTINSON 6달 전 1

I still say, find any airplane that has ever been "endorsed" by a pilots union.

That's not what they do.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Claude Buckley 6달 전 2

And after 6 years of P-3 experience and 2 years of Electra II experiences with Universal Airlines I always thought it was named the “II” because Amelia flew the original (twin engine) Electra.?
It was an outstanding airplane, after the fix.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

William Ableman 6달 전 2

No, it's not rebranding. This is how the plane is designated in the factory during manufacturing. Each dash number... -7, -8, -9, -10 are the variations, and they need to know that when they build the airplane, because most parts are a little different for each model, with different part numbers. This is not to say that someday they won't call it something different for the public, like the 737 Superdooper.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

a1brainiac 6달 전 3

You can put lipstick on a pig...it's still a pig

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

terry gersdorf 6달 전 1

You know there is a joke here

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

[This poster has been suspended.]

Ben Kennedy 6달 전 2

Yes.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Scott Hawthorn 6달 전 1

Look at the logo on the plane that is pictured! "737-7." Now THAT'S rebranding.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

John Gerty 6달 전 1

How about MAXII? As opposed to MAX eeeee!

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Rob Palmer 6달 전 1

Electra was a great, reliable plane, except attracted insects to it's intakes causing engine to stall. FAA determined sound of turbines was just right to attract them. Fix? ?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

david fairchild 6달 전 1

'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet'

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Sue Lockwood 6달 전 1

Too little too late for everyone involved.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Christopher Sargeant 6달 전 1

Imagine how many new orders they could get if they took advantage of the lull in air travel by deciding they actually wanted to compete with Airbus and building a new clean-sheet design. They could smoke the A320NEO if they wanted to, but that might involve spending money and paying their rank-and-file. Why do that when you can pay lawyers and lobbyists instead.

In 20-30 years hence, Airbus would be in the same place Boeing was 10 years ago with the predicament of having that huge question mark about what to do with their aging design.

Nah, far easier to stand on the street corner with your hand out.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Scott Hawthorn 6달 전 1

From a bunch of the nasty comments I see here, I take it that many don't believe that it's been fixed. Do you guys really believe that after all this fuss and billions of $$$ spent/lost, they'd still put out a pig that won't fly?????

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Doug Parker 6달 전 1

The emperor's new clothes.

À la Prince, "The aircraft formerly known as 'The 737 MAX.'"

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Gerard Kelly 6달 전 0

The 737 Max design is fundamentally unstable due to the positioning of the more powerful engines further forward. The inherent instability is compensated for by computer-controlled trim adjustments which make the aircraft less aerodynamically efficient than it could be ,with proper airframe re-design. The fact that the M-CAS compensation effects were kept from pilots in training caused a dangerous blind spot in their efforts to control out-of-trim conditions when they arose. I don't like airplanes whose basic design is bad.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Randall Guthrie 6달 전 3

Not sure what your qualifications are to make the claims you do, but I assume you would have some level of authority. My qualifications are 737-800 Captain and I flew the Max several times. The airplane flew better than the regular -800, yet I was not aware of MCAS. So there might be other differences that I was not aware of also. I had no reservations flying the aircraft, but I know my training and experience far exceeded those that were not able to recover. Who could blame Boeing for trying to rebrand the aircraft. I expect it will be the safest aircraft to fly with all the scrutiny it faces, and I'll fly as a passenger on any US carrier that brings it back.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

JMARTINSON 6달 전 2

He's regurgitating nonsense from an article posted online shortly after the second crash called "How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer"

Spoiler alert: How it looks is a lot different than it really is, apparently.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

D Rotten 6달 전 0

That's par for the course with EVERYTHING that's BAD for you.......just give it a NEW NAME!!

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

Edward Bardes 6달 전 0

A pig goes down in one shot. A pig wearing a hat goes down in two.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

patrick baker 6달 전 -5

i think they ought to put a decal of a rodeo cowboy on a horse right by the cockpit windows, and call the aircraft what it truly is : boeing bucking bronco. Put every ones mind at ease a bit......

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

a p 6달 전 -5

No matter how much money the Boeing guys spend on rebranding, it will always be the Boeing 737-Coffin.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

ImperialEagle 6달 전 0

Oh yeah. It was inevitable. Not, that the public would know the difference,but, the mainstream media would never let it rest. As it is, at this point the general public at large is still not flying anyway.

AND, there is little to compare the 737's issues with the L-188.
At the time many in the industry only referred to the L-188 as a "prop-jet". The name "Electra" was taken off of the side of the aircraft or name changed to "Electra II" or "Super Electra". I always thought the "Super Electra" moniker ironic since the ORIGINAL "Super Electra" L-18, suffered from flutter issues as well. Lockheed must have cringed at the idea.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

ron baird 6달 전 -2

Boeing, a once proud Unit4d States company, sucks up to the president.
What ever happened to American pride?

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

William Monti 6달 전 -6

Boeing is being unnecessarily harmed by the FAA to placate the EU.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•Report

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

Greg S 6달 전 11

At this point I can't tell if you're a genuine moron or a troll. I would guess you're a genuine moron.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Silent Bob 6달 전 8

I would guess he ingested too much corn sugar.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

Kevin Keswick 6달 전 14

Actually it is not. The MD11's first flight was 9 years after AAL191. The name change reflects the fact that the MD11 was developed by the merged McDonnell-Douglas corporation. The DC-10 program was conceived and developed by Douglas Aircraft, hence "DC" designation" although it first flew in 1970 after the merger.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Tom Pera 6달 전 5

totally different airplane... looked the same... but, except for appearance totally changed

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Mike Boote 6달 전 9

Uh, no - the MD11 came many years later and it was a different aircraft altogether, though it looked somewhat similar.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

Peter Fuller 6달 전 4

Deep-sixing the MAX moniker is more reminiscent of what American Airlines did to its DC10s. AA originally put decals on their DC10s, just below the forward doors, in full view of passengers waiting in the gate area, reading “DC10 Luxury Liner”. After the DC10s troubles, these were changed to read “American Airlines Luxury Liner”. You can find images of both in FlightAware’s DC10 photo gallery.

응답 ↓•퍼머링크•모•Report

로그인

이 웹 사이트는 쿠키를 사용합니다. 이 웹 사이트를 사용하고 탐색함으로써 귀하는 이러한 쿠기 사용을 수락하는 것입니다.

종료

FlightAware 항공편 추적이 광고로 지원된다는 것을 알고 계셨습니까?

FlightAware.com의 광고를 허용하면 FlightAware를 무료로 유지할 수 있습니다. Flightaware에서는 훌륭한 경험을 제공할 수 있도록 관련성있고 방해되지 않는 광고를 유지하기 위해 열심히 노력하고 있습니다. FlightAware에서 간단히 광고를 허용 하거나 프리미엄 계정을 고려해 보십시오..

종료