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After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

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On the morning of Jan. 26, as two Alaska Airlines flights from Seattle to Hawaii lifted off six minutes apart, the pilots each felt a slight bump and the flight attendants at the back of the cabin heard a scraping noise. As the noses of both Boeing 737s lifted skyward on takeoff, their tails had scraped the runway. Alaska’s flight operations staff quickly realized that a software bug was sending bad takeoff weight data to its crews. (www.seattletimes.com) 기타...

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Propwash122
From the article: “The [software] bug was identified quickly in part because some flight crews noticed the weights didn’t seem right and asked for manual revalidation of the figures. During preflight check, when the DynamicSource message comes in, the first officer reads each data point aloud and the captain verbally verifies each one.”

Just another data point showing the necessity for competent alert pilots (plural) in the cockpit to keep tabs on the automation. This puts the lie to those who think single-pilot or unpiloted operations are just around the corner
mbrews
mbrews 21
Well stated, Peter. The organization DynamicSource is a third party firm from Scandinavia, it sells calculation packages / services to airlines. I saw one report to the effect that “errors occurred when the systems became busy at peak times “. Time for the FAA to step in & identify gaps in safety-related processes.

There’s wisdom in the adage - keep it simple stupid. ( The K.I.S.S. principle.)
jbsimms
No shade on the airlines or Boeing, but the FAA likely won’t do anything until a plane full of passengers goes down. Then the finger pointing will start, & we all know a likely target…..

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

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jbsimms
Thank you
srobak
srobak 2
When the system became busy at peak tribes? Now that's bloody frightening... And reveals downright shitty coding. You don't hear about computations being off at even the 10th decimal place in banking or medical at peak usage. Smh
jbsimms
No big deal (usually, unless it’s a security issue) if lousy coding is on your PC/Laptop & shuts it down or otherwise messes up a perfectly good day.

Lousy coding or not testing it under ‘stress’/‘stress of likely operations’ (to include far fetched scenarios) in this instance, is inexcusable when lives can potentially in danger.
T1mothyO
(Deep breath). These 2 sets of pilots missed it. So that is 4 pilots. The arguments against single pilot still rest with the idea that humans can do a better job in managing complex machines AND each other. Machines already do that (managing better than humans). The challenge is that we are using human centric thinking to address a non-human challenge. What we need is to extend the current model of checks and balances that are not entirely based on the processing power in the mark 1 human brain. I fully agree we are not yet ready to have single pilot operation on 9+ commercial passenger operation. But we must improve the processing of the "system" so that humans don't continue to make the same decisions (mistakes) that have plagued the human factors in aviation since time began.
RainbowRiver
I wouldn't exactly say that the pilots "missed it" or made any mistakes in this case, since we've relied upon automated performance data for many decades and, especially with today's high tempo operations, there is little time for crews to independently verify all of the data. Your observation in regards to single pilot operations is spot on. If four pilots "missed" it, what chance does a single pilot have?
SkyAware123
Uhm, the error is a human error. Put in by the coder who programmed the system. I don't care how good you think you are but a system that is mathematically tested for bugs will outperform your decaying self any time of the day and night.
Kci0
Two humans, IN A ROW, failed to notice the bogus data. Actually, reading the whole thing I see THIRTY human pilots in total failed throughout that day.

It is unfortunate that software from a different vendor isn't used to crosscheck the software from the original vendor. If it had been, those flights never would have taken off with a false understanding of their weights. Hindsight is 20/20, but the bug would have been highlighted before pushback, and corrected on the ground without any property damage if we just had more software.

Humans noticed the numbers 'didn't look right' after the tailstrike. So.... why didn't they notice that before? Because they didn't actually look at it before. Or they didn't think about it. That's the sad truth. Even seasoned veterans become glazed over to regular boring things until they feel an unexpected bump.

This is exactly the reason we need more computer automation, not less. Computers don't get tired or bored. Even the AA pilot in the article acknowledged the failures and distractions of humans.

Sufficiently advanced software and sensors will even compare the actual acceleration during takeoff with the predicted acceleration, and abort if it's beyond some percent, indicating a miscalculated weight(mass), or engines under-performing that a human wouldn't even have the senses to perceive.
Tflys1
Tflys1 9
Did they both return??? Seattletimes will not let me read the article
ghstark
Greg S 12
They both returned immediately after take-off, were inspected, and took off again a few hours later.
jbsimms
I don’t subscribe but I got in w/out any issues, so there’s that
DudeA4F
Flying! Flying is holding the yoke with a light grip...fingers only; not a death grip and performing a fighter-type maneuver when you hear the word, "rotate". Rather, start a semi-slow rotation and let the airplane talk to you, does it "feel" like its ready to fly? As you approach 10 or so degrees nose up, has it lifted off? If it has not, hold roughly that attitude and wait for it to become airborne. Along the way, if it seems like the acceleration does not match the runway you see left, consider advancing the thrust levers. Lastly, if you haven't been in a light, GA airplane in a long time, perhaps you should venture out. I remind myself that "on any given day"...any of us can be caught off guard. Constant vigilance is the goal.
RainbowRiver
Taking off out of Denver on a really hot summer day at runway-limited weight and watching the end of the runway coming up doesn't really lend itself to nuanced rotation techniques. :)
birtsjoe
Or Las Vegas when it's 118 in the shade!
gacoon
gacoon 1
joeserdynski
here's the story from Hawaii perspective: https://beatofhawaii.com/nationwide-shutdown-after-two-hawaii-flight-tail-strike-diversions/
kenbadger1
Ken Riehl 10
If you are a flight crew regularly flying this route with relatively full pax and max allowable fuel and you don’t recognize the lower engine eprs and V speeds associated with a 20-30,000 pounds light error. You probably should rethink your career path…
darjr26
darjr26 2
I agree 100 percent. Either the fuel or passenger weights had to be entered incorrectly. In a narrow body aircraft on a five hour flight, that was most likely full, the takeoff weight discrepancy should have been obvious.. Taking off with reduced thrust using lower v-speeds is a big deal, so is landing overweight using airspeeds that are based on an incorrect landing weight.

jbsimms
Agree, but only Alaska knows for sure if this was a ‘regular’ crew or a crew not normally flying this route.
Sundune54
I find it hard to believe that an approved airline performance provider could not ADD numbers correctly. Alaska should switch to AERODATA.
pr0ject
Ahem. It wasn't just 4 pilots who missed the incorrect data. It was 30 flights, so roughly 60 pilots. Per the article: "Alaska says it operated 727 flights that day, of which just 30 took off with incorrect takeoff data. Only those two Hawaii-bound aircraft had tail strikes."
yr2012
Well, I hope someone checked the runway for any debris
PegLegJim
Any incident like this launches an immediate FOD check of the strip before any departures/arrivals.
mboring
Great article. Thanks.
SeanAwning
Please send your thanks to Dominic Gates of the Seattle Times: he's the reporter who gathered the information and published the story.
gomedoc
Does it seem like there are more and more of these types of events lately? Who is running things??
srobak
srobak 4
The computers. Skynet is real.
jsteiner
His name is "Pete", or more colloquially, "Pothole Pete"...
PegLegJim
I just want to clarify an easily verifiable fact, that you’re referring to Pete Buttigieg, the guy being blamed for the safety regulations rolled back/eliminated by the last administration, correct?
johntaylor571
Actually, NTSB says that the regulation you are referring would have done nothing to avert the derailment in Ohio. The pneumatic braking system would have done nothing for a burning axle bearing. Even with the braking system, the car with the burning wheel bearings would have derailed any way. Educate your self by reading some news and not just regurgitate leftist talking points.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-train-derailment-ntsb-chair-issues-plea-spreading/story?id=97281671
Julicomfort918
Haa he got you there! Ole peg leg Pete needs to take his hard hat and sit down before he hurts himself!
mediatechnology
Yes he's blaming the aloof pothole Pete who simply doesn't care.
fredbrillo111
So exactly which one of tge current DOT rule changes might have caused this incident? Asking for a friend...
fredbrillo111
I'm guessing he mandated using this software ...
fredbrillo111
Typical Maga Moron crap.
Dpharrison
I must wonder if this is related to the 30 year old software the FAA says they can’t upgrade for six more years.
kg0ye
Charles, you are so right on.
birtsjoe
When the DC9 was first introduced (back in the dark ages) Good ole TTA or TIA (AKA- Treetop Airways) was notorious for tail strikes; you could see the skid marks on the paint.
larrykreuger
Re comments blaming Buttijieg…here we go again. Trump (this time) and before him prior conservative administrations have either turned back regulations meant to protect consumer safety or failed to enforce them when they should have…by not replacing retiring inspectors, slow playing new hires, refusing to bring cases to court and dozens of little paperwork tactics to assure unfettered ‘game on’ profit taking any chance they get…historically re. automotive safety, child crib safety, flame retardant bedding and pjs, safe drinking water in some locales, truck and river shipping standards, and most recently the horrible freight train disaster in Ohio….all preventable via existing regs but made impotent by those living off of the industry lobbyists on K Street in D.C. same thing happens at state and local level. The whole border crossing disaster could have been easily solved if there had been an honest discussions out in the open about the Jolly Green Giant type agribusinesses and chicken plucker plants in the Midwest, sugar beets in N. Dakota, cranberries in New England, palm tree trimmers and roofers in Fl…all hiring aliens with their need for cheap manual laborers. Amazes me when right wingers try to blame these disasters on Democrats who inherit such malfeasance from preceding administrations. And don’t get me started on Maga bubbas complaining about border walls when they do their shopping at big box stores that thrive on cheap labor from alien workers…while their homes are filled with Chinese goods. Wowzer!
RainbowRiver
This is an issue that has been around since railcars were invented. But there's so much political fighting these days that one simple fact is ignored: The railroad company is ultimately to blame. They don't have enough crew, they don't have enough maintenance, they don't have enough inspectors, and they apparently don't have any way to detect a "hot box" (or whatever they're called) while underway. Congress may also be to blame for not requiring that the railroads have some way of detecting overheated bearings on rail cars.
jbsimms
The crew issue is the Class 1’s ( the seven-soon to be six; major railroads have adopted Precision Scheduled Railroading (PSR). This involves combining several small trains, or two medium sized trains into 10,000-15,000+ trains. Not standing up for Norfolk Southern, but there’s no way a two person up front can look back 10-15,000 to see a problem.

This all started in the 1980’s when train crews went from five people to the current two people; it also eliminated the caboose & the two people there that might have seen the problem. In addition to cutting train crews, they’ve cut car, track, & signal maintainers. There’s so much pressure to get trains out, trains are leaving yards w/out proper maintenance not are they properly put together. More times than not, trains are leaving w/empty & light weight cars up front & loads behind that causes derailments if taken around a sharp curve (stringlining).

On top of that, when the chinese flu hit, more crews & support people were cut, all the way into the bone. Because of crew shortages, the Class 1’s imposed Draconian attendance policies, crews can’t get off for family sicknesses, emergencies, family events like children getting married or the Death of a family member.

One railroader was chastised & almost written up because he attended the funeral of his Father. ‘Furloughed’ (laid off) aren’t coming back when given the opportunity opting for lessor pay & a stable family life. New hires take six months to fully train, but aren’t fully ‘trained’ until two years pass. Many new hires work for a while & say to heck w/it after only a few months.

You know there’s a problem when people making $90-125,000/ year quit w/20 or 25 years in, not long before retiring w/a very handsome retirement package.
tnbriggs
Phil: Railroad defect detectors (the devices that defect the hot wheels and bearings and other deficiencies, such as something hanging down under a railcar) are placed solely at the discretion of the operating railroad. Both their frequency along a rail route and the thermal categories which prompt different levels of alert and subsequent action by the train's operators are also at the railroad's discretion and are not consistent even among the the five class I railroads in the U.S.: BNSF, UP, CSX, NS, CN.
jbsimms
I have heard NS knew there were defective defect detectors & urged crews to ignore defects
georgewilhelmsen
Here we go, blaming Trump again. President Biden published over 100 Executive Decisions, rolling back almost all of Trump's reforms. If he missed this one (he called them "bad policy" that's on him.

He also improperly used an "executive decision" to try to forgive billions in college debt. There is no such thing - he's just transferring that debt to the backs of taxpayers like you and me.

But thanks for bringing Trump up again. As usual, fanning hatred - you've been well brainwashed by the liberal media to HATE HATE HATE Trump. We get it.
Greenjeans
At least, the head of NTSB is attempting to curtail all the false information and finger pointing, as in Larry's treatise. Here's quote from her statement.

Homendy then tweeted: "That leads me to my last point: anyone speculating about what happened, didn’t happen, or should've happened is misleading a suffering community -- PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION."

The NTSB chair addressed speculation that a rule on electronically controlled pneumatic (ECP) breaks -- if implemented -- would have prevented the train derailment, which she said was "FALSE."

"The ECP braking rule would've applied ONLY to HIGH HAZARD FLAMMABLE TRAINS. The train that derailed in East Palestine was a MIXED FREIGHT TRAIN containing only 3 placarded Class 3 flammable liquids cars," she tweeted. "This means even if the rule had gone into effect, this train wouldn't have had ECP brakes."

Finally, Homendy urged members of the public to let her agency lead the investigation.

"Anything else is harmful -- and adding pain to a community that’s been through enough," she tweeted. "But…if this derailment has moved you to want to become a safety investigator, we'd love to have you at the NTSB."
greerbk
Just a thought as I am not involved in rail systems - but shouldn't trains be rated in terms of the highest/worst hazard component in the load? It seems a little odd that a train could include highly hazardous components but maybe if that percentage is below a certain amount, it is ignored... Is that the issue?
jbsimms
Would you rather the hazardous goods be transported by semi truck through your hometown being driven by a semiliterate driver from a third world country (bunch of those running around on our nations highways), a ‘Cowboy’ driver ignoring speed limits/traffic/road conditions, a tired driver pushing his hours of service, or someone who was told by their dispatcher the load had to get through no matter how tired/sick the driver is?

Not to mention Joe Q. Public engrossed w/their cellphone driving his four wheeler acting like Mario Andretti or A.J. Foyt @ the Indy 500


There are HazMat placards & UN HazMat numbers on each loaded tank car & a 1-800 number to call in case of a derailment.

It’s not a perfect system, but it’s the best out there developed out of numerous spectacular & deadly derailments in the past (look them up sometime), & rail is the safest way to transport HazMat.
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 1
I used to work in the railway industry and yes that is a loophole they use. There are a lot of regs on dangerous commodities but like every regulation there is always a loophole.
themanholeguy
So Rump giving out trillions in PPP money is different than the college dept payoff how?
johntaylor571
Because PPP was to help save businesses by keeping them afloat during the shutdowns. Giving away money for college kids who borrowed more than they could pay for and just don't want to pay is freeloading off of the taxpayers. You'll recall PPP money were LOANS, not handouts, which they turned into under Biden anyway.
jbsimms
Not to mention majoring in things like Sociology, Anthropology, Gender Studies, & other majors they have very little hope in obtaining a decent paying job
larrykreuger
Thanks George for your thoughts…but I’m not the one confused here. In the case of college debt, the actual plan, if implemented will put billions back into the economy when these little people who got duped by ersatz online ‘universities’ (often little more than a mailbox and completely automated and auto-graded online “thin learning” nonsense…generating nearly worthless newly invented majors such as ‘assistant services manager’ or whatever) are finally able to get back on their feet. The commodification of higher education by cheesy profiteers is the real culprit here…they should be exposed and shut down. So no, I don’t think Biden did anything wrong. Next, we know how much silly Wealthfare goes to the country club, mostly Republican fat cats who pay few taxes and live off of government payments in the form of tax expenditures (write offs) for golf outings, lift tickets, exclusive off the grid hunting lodges, corporate jet subsidies (the most polluting form of travel per passenger mile), calling their yachts that sleep six or more their ‘second homes’ and deducting interest on home loans, or inner city top of the towers condo dwellers claiming they are ‘farmers’ or ‘ranchers’…this is the bullish-t that leads me to not worry so much about Biden giving help to those who are trying to better themselves…I don’t blame them for enrolling in newly formed fake academies. As for being brainwashed, sorry but the entire global media, save for a few outliers mostly Fox and a.m. radio, agree with with I’m writing…even the Wall Street Journal admits to what I’ve written here. Normal emotional grownups who didn’t quit reading in the fifth grade and voted Trump off of our island are not to blame…it’s the greed weasels in the profit sector and poorly educated Maga bubbas and bubbettes who don’t read and got completely bamboozled by Captain Chaos (Trump) who have screwed up America and may yet destroy it with their assault weapons taking out our little school children…what a dystopian Trump-tastrophy!
Julicomfort918
You are an idiot an absolute moron and you represented the left well here today. I never heard such whining again ZERO OWNERSHIP YOU TWIT! Furthermore leave the decision making to the professionals and keep
The goddam swamp out of such decisions when you know nothing thank tou Pelosi but we can take it from here. And my god what rock did crawl out from under! Everything wrong today is absolutely 💯the result of democrat leadership. Yup you voted for Biden I can tell and yea love the wall lived in AZ for 22 years and you just don't know u less you see it so shut up and love target big box retailers has zero to do with migrants buddy! The majority of mercy is made and imported from overseas right to the store cause I worked at target for many years. Anyone working there has to have a soc and an ID. All your claims are false with an ignorant leftist spin
Julicomfort918
Go build a fence around your house and stay there
johntaylor571
Wrong about the "turned back regulation". Quit regurgitating your leftist talking points. The head of the NTSB has said the regulation you're (wrongly) spouting about would have done nothing to prevent this derailment. Even ABC news is saying that the head of the NTSB is pleading with you people to stop spreading misinformation. For your reading (and educating) pleasure.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-train-derailment-ntsb-chair-issues-plea-spreading/story?id=97281671
larrykreuger
Re comments blaming Buttijieg…here we go again. Trump (this time) and before him prior conservative administrations have either turned back regulations meant to protect consumer safety or failed to enforce them when they should have…by not replacing retiring inspectors, slow playing new hires, refusing to bring cases to court and dozens of little paperwork tactics to assure unfettered ‘game on’ profit taking any chance they get…historically re. automotive safety, child crib safety, flame retardant bedding and pjs, safe drinking water in some locales, truck and river shipping standards, and most recently the horrible freight train disaster in Ohio….all preventable via existing regs but made impotent by those living off of the industry lobbyists on K Street in D.C. same thing happens at state and local level. The whole border crossing disaster could have been easily solved if there had been honest discussions out in the open about the Jolly Green Giant type agribusinesses and chicken plucker plants in the Midwest, sugar beets in N. Dakota, cranberries in New England, palm tree trimmers and roofers in Fl…all hiring aliens with their need for cheap manual laborers. Amazes me when right wingers try to blame these disasters on Democrats who inherit such malfeasance from preceding administrations. And don’t get me started on Maga bubbas complaining about border walls when they do their shopping at big box stores that thrive on cheap labor from alien workers…while their homes are filled with Chinese goods. Wowzer!
RainbowRiver
All true on both sides, but this is an aviation forum, not a political forum (hopefully).
tnbriggs
The political nonsense here as gotten so bad I try to visit as little as possible. And hard to fathom in that aviation as we know it in the modern world would have never gotten off the ground (pun intended) if it hadn't been for the worldwide governmental intervention and regulation necessary to have an orderly, safe airspace. Just try to imagine all flights operating on VFR only.
gomedoc
you mean since the modern administrative state was unconstitutionally imposed on the American people in the 1930's , we still do not have perfection we can still be thwarted by a ball bearing? That still justifies more corrupt and inept government? How could that be??? That is not what Marx promised......what happened??
ravenshammer
You mean that Larry has posted his left wing drivel twice, or Jon has posted his short post that exposes Larry as a mentally deficient socialist twice? I can't believe that flight aware has descended into such leftist bot garbage as far as the comments section is concerned.
srobak
srobak 0
You already posted that
1skate1
Well, it is an amazing piece of prose that rivals Shakespeare that probably needs repeated, even if it is factually wrong nonsense ad drivel.
gomedoc
you mean since the modern administrative state was unconstitutionally imposed on the American people in the 1930's , we still do not have perfection? How could that be??? That is not the promise of Marxism......what happened??

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