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NASA is Considering Returning Starliner Crew on SpaceX

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NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams have been stuck on the International Space Station since early June. Their Boeing Starliner spacecraft suffered numerous helium leaks and thruster issues following launch from Cape Canaveral, FL on the Crew Flight Test. It’s the first crewed mission shakedown of the Starliner. (avgeekery.com) More...

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punkrawk78
Silent Bob 45
A 3 hour tour, a 3 hour tour.
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 24
Rename the Starliner to the Minnow.
aknorris
aknorris 12
Well, they did name the capsule Calypso and choose a narwahl for the zero-gravity indicator.
Maybe they were close to something and didn't even realize it.
stansdds
LOL!!!!!
HarrySchluderberg
Boeing is confident? That’s reassuring. Don’t risk those two lives while trying to save face on that lemon, Starliner. Quit farting around and let SpaceX come to the rescue. Is there anyone at Johnson space Center with cajones to make that decision?

[This poster has been suspended.]

Nooge
Nooge -4
Shut down people who disparage American workers, American Airline Builders and American Presidents

America is Great now

Bill wants to go back to the 50s
jbsimms
James Simms 23
The old Apollo heads still around are shaking their heads in disgust, thinking WTH !!! or spinning in their graves
wr247
wr247 21
Read elsewhere - “Boeing issued a brief statement following NASA's news update, repeating its position that the capsule could still safely bring the astronauts home.“ These are the folks who said the 737 MAX was safe after the first and second accidents. Fortunately the FAA didn’t buy it the second time. Good that NASA seems to have learned they need to do their own analysis. Meanwhile they have a couple of passengers facing a 7+ month delay for a return flight. Nowhere to buy clothes, not enough money for the minibar, sharing a room. I would book a different carrier next time.
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 5
It’s only 7+ months how many cloths do they need? Sadly the rest of the people on the Space Station will need to watch their shirts and pants deteriorate…
AlanBDahl
Alan Dahl 3
The Crew 9 mission will launch in September with only two astronauts instead of four and Butch and Sunny will replace the missing astronauts as part of Crew 9. I am sure that between that mission and the cargo resupply missions that regularly call at the space station they will have plenty of supplies including clothing.
tgraham2000
tgraham2000 8
"It's good to go." There aren't any door plugs on that spacecraft or anything, right?

It's a real shame that Boeing has fallen so far.
greerbk
Greer Kemp 8
An even bigger slap in the face than the original failure...
powerboatr
Robert Sloane 7
early june? one would think the situation could have been engineered to death by now for a safe return
if i was up there, i would choose the space X capsule and get home
incredible this is happening.
Doonhamers
If I was stuck up there I sure wouldn’t want to come back in the Starliner. Is it a case of nothing made by Boeing works as it should these days?
jkeifer3
Joe Keifer 7
Is the NTSB or FAA involved in getting to the root cause of failures such as this? If so, it's going to be interesting to see how they describe Boeing's safety culture in light of this.
mattwestuk
Matt West 22
Looks like they may be delayed until 2025. How far they have fallen since original 777 was released.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/07/science/boeing-starliner-nasa-astronauts-return/index.html

If it's Boeing it's not going...anywhere. If I were one of those Astronauts, I would have serious reservations about coming back in that thing. Re-entry is far more dangerous than exit.
mattwestuk
Matt West 19
It also occurs to me, sending SpaceX to rescue stranded astronauts because of a Boeing craft is akin to sending an Airbus to retrieve the passengers from the AS flight!
jbsimms
James Simms 5
This sorta reminds me of the 1969 movie, ‘Marooned’. Had a great cast.
charlcarr5
Also, there was an airport movie too.
pulseins
Scott Haas 8
Was there not, at one point, plans for an "escape pod" from the ISS? Whatever happened to that idea? And what happens in the next months if there is a problem with the ISS? NASA seems to be slipping on the "safety through redundancy" method. This seems like a slow motion train wreck.
aknorris
aknorris 10
Not exactly. The "escape pod" concept is accomplished by ensuring there are enough crew capsules at the station to bring home everyone aboard. It has long been a Soyuz capsule (or more than one, depending on ISS occupancy). Even right now, there are enough capsules for all the ISS occupants to retreat from the station into a capsule.
Just a few weeks ago, in fact, the astronauts DID retreat into their respective capsules after warnings of potential FOD impacts on the ISS.
Now, the situation is that Boeing wants to keep Starliner there beyond the time that NASA is prepared to keep Butch and Sunny at the ISS; therefore, they're looking for an alternate ride home.
pulseins
Scott Haas 9
Well, yes, that is the current model but there was a plan was for a "lifeboat" design that could return the crew in the event of an extended emergency. It was studied but never actually implemented.

"The early Space Station proposals assumed the facility would be equipped with a 'safe haven' where the crew would wait for a rescue Shuttle in case of emergency. After the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger accident, it became obvious that some sort of 'lifeboat' would have to be added....

NASA's Johnson Space Center began examining the alternatives, including refurbishing old unused Apollo lunar capsules from the 1960s! The cheapest options examined included:

The $600-million 'Station Crew Return Alternative Module' (SCRAM) would have consisted of a heat shield from the Viking Mars probe and a cylindrical 6-man capsule. It would however have produced high G-loads on the crew.
An alternate configuration would have been derived from the old US Air Force 'Discoverer' recovery capsule. The crew return vehicle version would have been scaled up to accommodate a full Space Station crew of eight astronauts. In 1986 General Electric and NIS Space Ltd. proposed a commercially developed series of such capsules, for unmanned microgravity research as well as Space Station crew rescue.
The HL-20 Crew Rescue Vehicle was the 'luxury' crew rescue vehicle option. Langley Research Center's $2-billion HL-20 was loosely based on a Soviet spaceplane design. It could carry a crew of eight and might even double as a 'Personnel Launch System' mini-shuttle if launched on a Titan IV rocket. Its lifting body design would have provided superior manoeuvrability for safe return from orbit. However, Congress balked at the price and cancelled all funding in 1990.
The X-38 Crew Rescue Vehicle was the solution selected after Congress effectively cancelled the HL-20. NASA had briefly examined using the French 'Hermés' mini-shuttle and off-the-shelf Russian Soyuz capsules as the Space Station's lifeboat before finally settling for the in-house 'cheaperfasterbetter' X-38 design. This vehicle is based on the old X-23/X-24A lifting body which was extensively tested in the 1960s. The total cost was estimated to be approximately $1 billion. The X-38 was designed to return all six International Space Station astronauts to Earth in an emergency. NASA was also hoping that the European Space Agency would develop an X-38 Crew Transfer Vehicle version that could be launched on the Ariane-5 rocket. In March 1998, the total expected program cost to the first re-entry test from orbit was $280 million, plus $150 million for a Shuttle launch. Production of four operational CRVs plus a fifth for ground training would cost $500 million. The 8.7m long vehicle was to weigh 9,072 kg and have an in-orbit lifetime of five years. Perhaps the biggest challenge was the giant landing parafoil which was to provide a pinpoint vertical landing capability. The first landing tests were carried out in 1998-99 and the vehicle was to be fully operational in 2003.."

https://web.archive.org/web/20070930191605/http://www.astronautix.com/craft/nasaacrv.htm
aknorris
aknorris 12
Yes, we're on the same page here. The original lifeboat design was scrapped before it ever began, so now it is incumbent on the powers-that-be to keep sufficient Soyuz, Dragon, or (eventually?) Starliner capsules on hand to serve that purpose.
Personally, I see the current model as a better option, partially because the individual capsules each have their own reentry capability, rather than the original lifeboat concept that left the astronauts to await a "rescue" ship to come get them.
Also, you mentioned redundancy, and I feel like the existing model addresses that issue as well, since multiple capsules can be sitting at the ISS at any time.
It just seems less like a train wreck to me, and more like the evolution of a better solution.
lcire1
Eric Rindal 4
Boeing needs to send a new Starliner to the station. at no cost to NASA. If it makes it without issue, Great!, they can bring the crew home. Otherwise cut Boeing loose.
mikehe
A good way to solve - or close - the Boeing problem.
bjd4133
James Day 3
Lives take priority over politics. NASA needs to take the politics out of the decision making process.
stansdds
If it's Boeing, it's going... but one way only.
allanrbowman
Allan Bowman 5
If Boeing tells the world, the Starline is safe and the crew do use it for their return, imagine what will happen to Boeings reputation world wide, if they burn up owing to thruster or other issues. Is Boeing so ignorant that they can't see this?
mohenley
Mark Henley 4
This Boeing management team has been infected with the NASA Shuttle management virus of "Make the date at any cost." "After all, we sure cant risk the embarrassment of having to delay things because some little item might not work perfectly..." Well, that mindset has killed enough people -- NASA, just tell Boeing that the Starliner capsule needs to be decoupled and deorbited to burn up, and schedule the soonest Space- X mission possible to bring them home.
aknorris
aknorris 6
That would be a really bad outcome. I think that's probably why Starliner is still docked at ISS, though. Boeing -- and NASA -- are working to avoid that type of scenario.
That doesn't seem to show ignorance, just caution.
MrTommy
MrTommy 2
Do the astronauts know how to grow potatoes?
blt56
blt56 2
Maybe they ought to return the two astronauts on Space-X and let some Boeing engineers fly the Starliner home.
hwh888
hwh888 2
I wonder how confident they feel about returning on a broken ship? Regardless what Boeing says? I’d like to be a fly on the wall and hear what their thoughts are?
ko25701
ko25701 2
"Probably safe" isn't good enough. Just like the Boeing V22, there is little real confidence anymore.
usa694tg
Marlene Stelly 2
Took them long enough to make that decision. Let's Go X!!
Viperguy46
Jesse Carroll 1
Why not borrow one of Russia's Soyuz Capsule!
I'm aure Boeing could make the doors fit!
Just saying....
RidgewoodNJ
Barry Morse 1
Teflon seats creep In other words, they pancake. Seats are kind of donut shaped with a hole in the middle. The oxidizer flows through that hole. If the donut gets squashed, the hole gets smaller: reduced flow.

But seats are typically dimensioned and installed to ensure acceptable flow rate under the worst foreseeable conditions. In this case, flow was still reduced too much.

The Teflon Properties Handbook says "Elastic Memory: Parts made from Teflon™ PTFE fluoropolymer resins tend to return to their original dimensions after a deformation, but the process of recovery may require a long time. A fabricated part that creeps or deforms over a period of time under stress will recover its original shape when stress is removed and the part is raised to sintering temperature. However, partial recovery will occur at lower temperatures. At any given temperature, recovery to be expected at that temperature is substantially complete in 15 min or less, but extent of recovery increases with increased temperature."

(In the above, I don't really understand how "recovery may require a long time" squares with the later "recovery...is substantially complete in 15 min or less," but whatever.)

In testing while docked to the ISS, all valves operated nominally. That suggests the seats may have temporarily recovered while at rest. But the valves may repeat their bad behavior when stresses are reapplied.

This is a tough one.
Flightdog
Roger Curtiss 1
It is my understanding that the issues are with systems in the service module which is jettisoned prior to reentry, therefore, they can only be examined and studied while the vehicle is still in space and that is the main driver of the delay. Clearly, at some point the crew capsule needs to be returned to Earth. Returning the crew via Dragon would mean that another qualified crew (who of course have never actually flown the vehicle since this was the 1st crewed flight) for Starliner would need to be sent up. In that context, keeping the current crew on the ISS until the problem has been worked as much as possible might actually make more sense.
briansfreeman
Brian Freeman 0
And we landed a man on the moon in 1969...right.

[This comment was deleted.]

love2flygirl
love2flygirl 4
Adam, please discuss how this relates to DEI in as much graphic detail and using as much verifiable data as you can.
lastrebel
Adam Price -5
It stands to reason that when you care more about what your employees look like than what their abilities, experience, and work ethic are, then you will not have the best people in positions to do the job. Boeing was very proud of their DEI culture when I checked their website a couple months back.
dwgoldfarb
dwgoldfarb 7
I have worked for the same company for 43 years. When I started it was a household name, and even today you will recognize its past accomplishments. Today we have a strong DEI culture as well, and I can easily say that I have never worked with anybody who I thought was incompetent as a result of DEI.

What I have found is that money, racism, and misogyny are the root of all incompetence. When I started the employee experience was akin to the tech Startups of the 2000's with baseball fields in the back of the facility, strong monetary support for extracurricular activities and employees who felt privileged to work there.

Today, the bean counters and MBAs have taken over and shifted many jobs to cheaper locations, stressed cost savings above all, and nobody I know feels privileged to work there anymore....I feel more like a survivor than anything.

I have lost all respect for anybody who spouts the DEI crap. In my history I have seen plenty of racism and misogyny where more qualified women and people of color were passed over in favor of a 'bro'. Tribalism is rife and comes from the top down.

It isn't DEI that that causes corporate woes. Its the Racists/Misogynists and the bean counters that bring down an organization.

Yes, I shouldn't feed the trolls.....
lastrebel
Adam Price -1
Well, I'd say we agree, at least partially. Whether it is DEI or "bro' Tribalism", it should not matter what you look like as to who gets the job. I agree the bean counters can bring down an organization as you suggest. Could be that DEI and bro' Tribalism are just symptoms of poor management, and not the sole cause of company failure.
Nooge
Nooge 2
Well, I'd say we agree, at least partially.

ould be that DEI Grievance and Proud Boy Tribalism are symptoms of the Red hat Cult 45rs

Stand back and stand by Adam
lastrebel
Adam Price -2
Who's a troll now?
Nooge
Nooge 1
Who's a red hatter who deep down in side wishes we cant make THE OLYMPICS GREAT AGAIN and go back before 1936 and Jesse Owens ...deep down inside you know thats your wish
dwgoldfarb
dwgoldfarb -1
"it should not matter what you look like as to who gets the job."

No it shouldn't, and in my experience 99% of the time it hasn't. Of all the talk of DEI hires/promotions being incompetent, I can't recall one case of it actually happening.

What has happened is when two "equally qualified" candidates are considered, DEI kicks in and the non-white dude get the nod. That is not a problem in my book as long as it is not taken to excess. I know of no organization where it has been taken to excess and nobody else does either or it would be documented extensively with hard examples.

What is far and away more common is a white 'bro' with fewer qualifications getting a position over a more qualified 'DEI' candidate. It was institutional in the 1940's -> 1980's, still happens today, and is equally likely at Boeing and other places.

The only people who seem to be spouting the DEI crap are those who have never worked in that environment and just "assume" it must be true. They haven't seen it for themselves, or we would be hearing hard examples.
lastrebel
Adam Price 1
Well, I've seen examples of both in my time. The reason DEI is a lightning rod is nobody has on their website that their company is proud of their good ole boy culture. Then you have DEI everywhere because it is PC. They are both wrong, so don't shove something down my throat just because it is PC. Not directed at you, but at culture today.
Nooge
Nooge -3
You would know good ole boy
Nooge
Nooge 4
Adam wont watch the Olympics ....too many black women winning Gold Medals due to DEI
locomoco
M.F. LaBoo 4
Balderdash, codswallop and blatherskite. There's not a shred of correlation.
love2flygirl
love2flygirl 3
Please discuss the correlation in as much graphic detail and using as much data as you can.
mikehe
Beyond the word "Boeing", says it all.

[This comment was deleted.]

k1121j
k1121j 12
no need to figure out the cause... We all know it happened when they merged with MD, its been down hill since. Profits over all other since then.
lgj
leif JOHANSSON 5
Agree !
mohenley
Mark Henley 5
Exactly. To paraphrase one recent AvWeek editorial, "Boeing changed their focus from building cutting-edge, safe aircraft to keeping Wall Street happy."
GeorgeDinius
George Dinius 2
I speak with a lot of Boeing employees and alumni who point to the MD ‘merger.’
Nooge
Nooge 1
Are you really so sure DEI has a role to play in the erosion of Boeing performance?

Or are you deep in the Red Hat Cult that thinks America is in decline ?

I prefer to fly Boeing over Airbus

Boeing is still American and America is still Great
lastrebel
Adam Price 0
Only to those who will not see.
Nooge
Nooge 1
Only to those who will not see would vote for a convicted felon
Nooge
Nooge 2
Too bad we cant make THE OLYMPICS GREAT AGAIN wear our Rad Polyester Hats and go back before 1936 and Jesse Owens ...right Adam?


2024 Olympics: USWNT tops Brazil to win gold in women's soccer for first time in 12 years


Mallory Swanson's second-half breakaway was all the U.S. needed to win 1-0 and get back on top of the world
Henry Bushnell
henry bushnell
Senior reporter
Sat, Aug 10, 2024,
Flightdog
Roger Curtiss 0
It is my understanding that the issues are with systems in the service module which is jettisoned prior to reentry, therefore, they can only be examined and studied while the vehicle is still in space and that is the main driver of the delay. Clearly, at some point the crew capsule needs to be returned to Earth. Returning the crew via Dragon would mean that another qualified crew (who of course have never actually flown the vehicle since this was the 1st crewed flight) for Starliner would need to be sent up. In that context, keeping the current crew on the ISS until the problem has been worked as much as possible might actually make more sense.
policydoc
Lu Wi 0
Safest best instrument available as quickly as possible. Clear goals.

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