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How to Make an ATR-72 Spin

Submitted
Friday's crash of an ATR-72 near Sao Paulo left behind a few important clues. (www.jetwhine.com) More...

Robert Mark
News junkieOutspokenPromoter

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fabferrari
Fabrizio Ferrari 4
I am not a pilot, but in the last 20-25 years, it happened to me many many times to cross the Alps (mainly MUC-BLQ-MUC) on board an ATR-72.
In winter it is normal to fly inside of the clouds and in stormy conditions.
The anti-icing systems did work properly and I am here to tell you my experience.
I have the feeling that the reason of the last air disaster are a combination of factirs.
Let's say: a Swiss cheese failur model.
Or something like that.
Let's wait for the results of the NTSB investigation.
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fabferrari
Fabrizio Ferrari 7
Did I write "factirs"....... sorry for the typo.
That's obviously the reason why I cannot be a pilot.
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jmilleratp
jmilleratp 3
Doesn't sound like it's that difficult. Very unfortunately.
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robmark
Robert Mark 3
To make it spin? no, it's not. You just need to do a few things all wrong ...
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victorbravo77
victorbravo77 3
One of two engines failing in icing conditions?

Wait for the investigation.

Sad story.
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greatwildblueyonder
great wildblueyonder 2
I wonder what the role of the autopilot was in this accident. Was it on? did it put the aircraft into a spin before the crew could react? So many variables and so short a time to analyze and correct.
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ensley6969
Charles Ensley 2
When you are flying around fat, dumb and happy, a stall alert will get your attention quickly. If you screw up and go into a spin, this is a 10 out of 10 on the oh shit meter. We did these in Navy flight school and it was full of lots of pucker factor. Later on in years, at the big airline job, we did these in the sims all the time, but you were always ready for it. Getting a stall that goes into a spin is pretty much full scale red on the meter for you're screwed. Now that I'm retired, just thinking of it makes me squirm in my lazy-boy-chair.
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oakwoodranch
Mark Henderson 3
A spin is very easy. Just climb out with the autopilot in vertical speed and not pay attention, when the stall occurs panic and over control and there you have it. Fear and lack of experience the two most dangerous things in an aircraft.
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robmark
Robert Mark 1
I wish I could disagree with your sarcasm Mark, but I can't. Thanks.
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robmark
Robert Mark 3
And any recovery would have been impossible if ice was adhering to the horizontal stabilizer.
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victorbravo77
victorbravo77 3
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/10/world/americas/brazil-plane-crash-investigation.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CE4.Gf94.uM-EE_wMqkTc&smid=url-share

Flat spin.
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DAL521
DAL521 4
Thank you for posting. The picture from above looks surreal like a bad made Hollywood set. Normally you expect a hundreds of meters long line of devastation, not a collapsed and burned down plane still in the original shape while everything around is still intact.
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robmark
Robert Mark 2
That's what the story said at least Victor. It spun yes, but not all spins are flat spins.
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robmark
Robert Mark 1
There was a typo in the last reply. The NY Times did not label the accident as being the result of a flat spin. It simply did not say that.
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victorbravo77
victorbravo77 1
The NYTimes did not say "flat spin." I did.

See @DAL521's comment above and thanks for reading/commenting!
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2sheds
2sheds 1
Twice the probability of an engine failure, managing the yaw of the good engine, etc,...
It's the price of performance.
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dann403aln
Dan Nelson 1
Years ago in a Flying Magazine, Richard Collins stated the twin engine aircraft are no safer than single engine aircraft...
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Bayouflier
Bayouflier 9
Yes, back when Flying was worth buying.
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dann403aln
Dan Nelson 5
I fully agree on the magazine, I have kept several of the old issues and still enjoy re-reading them. The new ones, not so much.
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bentwing60
bentwing60 3
One might also add that he stated that there were no significant stats on how many landed safely after an engine failure due to proper training and pilot response to an Oh !@#$ moment!

Indisputably one of the smartest GA guys in the room on weather flyin' and the ever finicky P210, and GB, Bax Seat a close second on human nature.

Those were my days and folks to read, while waitin' on the late arrival to blame moi' for the late arrival.

47RC I believe was the N number of his P210 and he sent it to a boneyard with 20,000 hrs. on the clock. He stated that it was worn out.

Another extraordinary aviator!
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robmark
Robert Mark 2
How true. Richard was one of the great ones.
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Ricovandijk
Rico van Dijk 1
And boy o boy was he wrong…
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IanHollingsworth
Ian Hollingsworth 0
Sorry. That is not even close to correct
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nobletjon
Jon Noblet 1
What do Yue mean? Not even close.
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IanHollingsworth
Ian Hollingsworth 1
I was responding to Mark.
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jeanpierrelhonneur
jean pierre LHonneur -2
You have two systems to avoid a stall an airplane with T Tail. A T tail airplane cannot be recover in stall.
The two systems are stick shaker and stick pusher to lower the nose just few knots before stall.
May be those systems were not working ???
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monstrok
John Clark 1
Thank you for making statements which are common beliefs yet untrue. Not all T-tail aircraft have stick-shakers (in fact, few a/c designs have this feature). T-tail aircraft also recover from stalls in the conventional method of lowering the nose and applying power to restore lift to both wings. If you were thinking "spins" and said stalls, then please restate with a knowledge-based and/or experience-based comment so that we understand that assumptions are not part of the statement.
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inoc
inoc 3
...actually to recover from a spin you have to stop the rotation with either rudder and/or differential thrust, then relax the back pressure until the nose is well below the horizon, then power and back pressure. Stalled wings can't become unstalled if the plane is spinning, also the rotation can rarely be stopped in a flat spin as a number of F-14s demonstrated. Also in the barnstormer days if an aviator was caught on top and had to get down quickly the accepted procedure was to spin it, you may have no visibility but you knew what the plane was doing and how to recover.
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jeanpierrelhonneur
jean pierre LHonneur -6
A T Tail aircraft will not recover from a stall . TWO systems will protect you from going in stall . On a T Tail aircraft , if the aircraft goes in stall, wings will mask the tail and controls will be ineffective to lower the nose.
1) a stick shake to alert pilots
2) and an stick pusher Will push the yoke and lower the nose to recover
May be those systems were frozen and not effective
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IanHollingsworth
Ian Hollingsworth 3
Not a fact
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IanHollingsworth
Ian Hollingsworth 1
answering Jean Pierre
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