← Back to Squawk list
  • 42

How Clever Design Helped Save 80 Lives in a Fiery Plane Crash

Submitted
When Delta Flight 4819 from Minneapolis to Toronto crash-landed, losing a wing and flipping upside down, onlookers feared the worst. Yet, in what seemed like a miracle, all 80 passengers and crew survived Monday’s crash at Toronto Pearson International Airport. (airguide.info) More...

Alan Winn
News junkiePromoterAltruistAnnouncerAutobiographer

Sort type: [Top] [Newest]


yungkdc
Dan Yungk 58
I totally agree on commending the flight attendants. Too often their role is seen as handing out blankets and drinks, but they shoulder some life and death responsibilities, and they appear to have stepped up to this challenge admirably.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok 9
Blankets?
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
1skate1
David Purtz 8
First class.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 5
Ahh yes first class. That is why most of us didn’t know this.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
azorie
azorie 2
well many years ago. we all got them if we asked.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 0
Many years ago flying was less common and we only flew for business or a very rare vacation. Now we seldom take a vacation that doesn’t include flying.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
dittoheadadt
Andrew Tl 2
Airlines sell blankets, which do need to be, yes, handed out.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
xtoler
Larry Toler 20
I saw the video on another site. The flight attendants did a great job getting everyone out. If I were still an FA, I would bring this scenario up in the next recurrent training session. What bothered me was the person filming the evacuation on their phone. This is a great example of what flight attendants main goal is to provide safety to passengers and security of the cabin.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
Justapixel
Ann Silberman 18
I carry my phone on a crossbody strap,so while I’d never take time to grab my luggage in an emergency, I’d definitely have my phone. Whether I’d have the presence of mind to record is unlikely, at least until I’m cleared of the plane. I do like to record landings if I’m seated in a window seat, so it may have been going already. Can’t fault that guy, he got us valuable data. The people wandering around with backpacks-not so much.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MLSellers
Mildred Sellers 17
thankfully the video will be taken by the NTSB
valuable information and will be used at CAMI for training
I flew from 1965 to 2010 and saw many changes in training from crash interviews. This film will be invaluable.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok 4
Someone filming the evacuation “bothered” you, but ,the following poster stated it would be an invaluable training tool for crew members!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MLSellers
Mildred Sellers 22
My sincere Congratulations to the F/As. They did an outstanding job getting everyone out safely and in under 90 seconds. I flew for 45 years from 1965 to 2010 and never once even thought about evacuating in the upside down. We practiced in the dark and in water but not upside down. Well done, ladies.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok -3
Uh, you know for a fact, that they were “ladies”?
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
devsfan
ken young 11
The cabin crew seen in the available videos were in fact women.
The Flight crew...Capt is a male. FO is a female on a Restricted Certificate. Less than 1500 hours.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok 0
Thank you! Just trying to eliminate any bias! You know how it is today!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
jdgeigerusa
James Geiger 3
One was
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
Bandrunner
Bandrunner 8
I'm curious about the wind behaviour immediately before the crash.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
jetjocknj
jetjocknj 13
This what I think they'll find: Due to a hard landing on the right side, the right main gear punched up through the wing compromising some or all of the right wing attachment points so that when the compromised right wing hit the runway, it easily separated at the attachment points, with the rolling inertia moment acting to roll the fuselage a full 180 degrees. The fuselage rolling moment might possibly have been aided by wind gusts. Rolling inertia happened to be spent or near spent when the left wing contacted the runway, acting to completely stop the rolling moment.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
anav8r
Martie Williams 17
That left wing still contributed to the roll a bit, too, I'd guess. At touchdown, it was still generating lift, but when the right wing hit the ground and departed the aircraft, I suspect it yawed the fuselage to the right a bit. Then the left wing transitioned from creating lift to acting like an air anchor, and the drag from the wing acted as a fulcrum to continue the rolling motion.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
DougHaviland
Doug Haviland 2
jetjocknj and Martie Williams got it. That’s the way I saw it as well.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
Farmington1
Michael Lewis 1
I would bet that you are 100% right. It sure looks that way in the video
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MLSellers
Mildred Sellers 0
maybe if these RJ pilots would rethink the soaring in at the speed of heat and doing carrier style landings the gear would survive for longer.
Seem every time we are on an RJ the landings are like a controlled crash. Gear wear out faster when abused
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
jetjocknj
jetjocknj 15
Airliner aircraft approach speeds are specified in the ops specs for the existing aircraft weight, winds, and gust factors, and airline pilots adhere to those speeds to the best of their ability. Any carrier-style landing would be unplanned, not received well by passengers and crew, and severely frowned upon by the company and other pilots. Any accusation of these flying anomalies as being intentional would be based on either fright or ignorance of the flying art, or both.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
blueskyaviationservices
Gary Clark 2
Well said! Many of the commentators can barely drive to Publix yet know how to land an airliner at “the speed of heat.”
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
devsfan
ken young 3
Normal rate of descent for landing aircraft is roughly 200 Ft Per minute.
According to the available data, the rate of this aircraft was 1100 ft per minute.
longer version of this interview is also avaiable.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/m24xz5AdIzc
and another point of view.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2025/02/18/aviation-expert-delta-plane-rate-of-descent-pearson-crash/
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
jetjocknj
jetjocknj 14
Your information is misleading and not representative. A normal rate of descent on a 3 degree glideslope with a not untypical 140 knot ground speed on final approach (no wind) would be 5 times 140, or 700 FPM, in round numbers. For a proper flare and touchdown, you would want a descent rate of NEXT TO ZERO.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 1
Thanks for the links.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok -2
Maybe don’t make comments, like you’re a professional pilot!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
devsfan
ken young 3
I think it is important to use links such as the ones I provided above.
The first video is a short of an interview I watched yesterday. That particular pilot used references to rate of descent.
I searched for that video which was around 8 minutes. Its either been taken down or is unavailable.
The second video presents a different perspective.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
whdouglas
Will Douglas 4
FAs got everyone off that plane in 90s, while upside? Incredible effort
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
rbordiway
rick ordiway 8
I just cant see 80 upside down pax exit under 90 seconds.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
jimquinndallas
Jim Quinn 5
Especially when some of them were carrying their luggage....
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MLSellers
Mildred Sellers 9
until people stop thinking their crap is so important and they drop the selfish attitude that they are special and do not need to listen to rules this will continue. I really wish they'd remove the bins entirely and go back to ONE item that fits on the floor under the seat in front of you. The bins probably have 200 pounds of crap in them on every flight.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MoominMama
Janice Watkins 2
That "crap" could contain essential medications. Don't judge what you don't know!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
mikeosmers
Michael Osmers 2
I’m pretty sure essential medications can be carried in a purse or man bag easily stowable under the seat ahead.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MoominMama
Janice Watkins 2
Inn not arguing with you.
You don't know circumstances or the way certain essential meds are packaged. They don't all come in conveniently bottled or boxed sizes. Some will only fit in larger bags. Certainly not in ordinary hand bags
I was on a plane last year and our hand bags were taken off us and put in the overheads.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
mikeosmers
Michael Osmers 3
Mildred’s point is that the vast majority of large carry ons don’t need to be in the cabin. In extraordinary circumstances like you are alluding to exceptions are made. Most carriers outside the US limit carry ons to smaller dimensions than typical US standards and 9kg of weight. It is a fact in a real emergency evacuation there are always idiots who think (actually I don’t think they are thinking at all) their possessions are more important than everyone getting out. I know personally of an evacuation where a guy took along his metal carry on suitcase, trailing behind as he went down the slide… which is made of fabric. The case had a sharp burr that scored the fabric and several following passengers fell through the hole it caused, breaking limbs in the process before the the flight attendants were able to stop the flow and direct the remaining passengers elsewhere. That passenger injured several others and caused a perfectly functional escape exit to become unusable. Personally, I consider that a criminal offense.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok 1
Their “crap” is either going to be in a carry-on, or in their checked luggage! STILL on the plane, either way!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 2
If it is all relegated to their checked baggage, then they will not be able to access it in an emergency.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
yungkdc
Dan Yungk 4
My understanding is that the FAA requires a successful demonstration of a 90 second evacuation as part of certifying any given aircraft design over a certain capacity. (I think 44 passengers?) But to your point, they don't conduct that test upside down!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MLSellers
Mildred Sellers 14
Having been part of a team that receives a new aircraft I can safely state we have to evacuate the aircraft that is filled with every seat taken and YES in 90 seconds. No matter the A/C there will be one F/A for every 50 seats....not people, seats. This lil RJ would have 2 F/As which were the heroes here. We are trained for all incidents but no one ever thought we'd need to do it upside down. These women figured how to OPEN the door as well as how to get out of the jumpseat upside down. Guess there will be a new simulator at training now
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 1
They could always make one similar to the helo dunker in which the "fuselage" of a helicopter is dropped into a pool of water and it turns upside down and everyone has to get out quickly. It is training for Navy/Marine helo aircrew (of which I did not have to do since I was a home grown crew chief).
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
Jaime1949
Jaime Terrassa 3
I hope they learn from it, thank God nobody died
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
bbabis
bbabis 3
Survivability is directly related to the angle of impact and speed. This accident was basically 0 degrees which greatly attributed to no fatalities. As you reach 10 degrees and any significant forward speed survivability reaches 0%.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
swinkey58
Daniel Hagan 2
Jim Wilson….
Thank you for giving us a well researched and positive article. From the respect and gratitude of great engineering, to the accolades for the flight attendants. That’s how we make America great.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
MacGuffin
Mac Guffin 3
Wow, looks like the sink rate of an F-18 landing on an aircraft carrier!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
rickh6155
Richard Hendricks 3
Something I observed when the aircraft hit the runway and rolled, is the amount of snow that was kicked up, providing what appears to be an extinguishing effect on the ensuing fire. Since this
was unannounced by the flight deck of the impending crash, it obviously took first responders
several minutes to reach the crash site and it appears that the snow had done most of the initial
extinguish work.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
devsfan
ken young 2
This is a very informative video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sHnkF-088
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
seacall2
seacall2 11
This video was done hastily, and divulges the names of the pilots- and photo of one- along with some sketchy surmising about their qualifications. Despite the disclaimers, the author has cast doubt on their capabilities that could easily bring harm to them and to other pilots- especially women. As with any propaganda, it begins with the truth, and ends with people's imaginations.
Please be careful what you spread
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
TimDyck
Tim Dyck 1
Thanks for the link.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
CHBHA
CB HARDY 2
The passengers caught taking their baggage off the plane should be taken to a room and have their fingernails pulled out.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
jmartiny
John Martiny 1
They stopped giving them out in FC after Covid :( Now we only get them in FC for long haul flights, the Westin Heavenly is the best!
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
fireftr
Dale Ballok 1
Why are replies to a post, hard to find, or not shown at all, after I’ve received notification that I’ve received one?
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
davepest8
dave wilson 0
I agree with Dan about the role of hosties but I don't think that I could rely on Qantas cabin crews wno are too lazy to get out of their own shadow.I have witnessed on several occasions the hostie standing by and watching elderly passengers struggling to fit carry on bags into the overhead locker and not offering to help.This would never happen with Singapore airlines.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
bbabis
bbabis -1
Hardly clever. Safety advancements are paid for by the blood of those who have perished in the past. Thank God the professional crew members in the back helped mitigate the results of the amateurs up front.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
wd73383
WD Rseven -3
It was plain luck and nothing "clever" about the design.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
jgoedker
jgoedker -6
Wings breaking off and landing gear collapsing doesn't seem like cleaver engineering to me. Moving the fuel away from the passengers in modern aircraft design? It would seem Airbus has different thoughts on this as their latest version of the A320 NEO has given up belly storage area for additional fuel tanks. Modern design puts fuel anyplace the designers can find space to put it. Thankfully no passengers died. But to put it on anyting but dumb luck is a stretch.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Report
yungkdc
Dan Yungk 7
No part can be engineered to be indestructible; aircraft parts are designed to (among other things) preserve safety under loads they will be subjected to. I'm sure the investigation will look at what loads the landing gear, wing, and other components were subjected to during this event, and whether those loads exceeded design requirements. If so, the investigation would then consider why the loads exceeded requirements.
Requiring a landing gear to survive a hard landing is reasonable; requiring a wing to survive the aircraft rolling over during landing might not be feasible. But if not feasible, the wing should be designed to fail in a manner that preserves safety.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
jbermo
jbermo 4
Very surprised that its wing snapped off - unlike the heavier B-777 of Asiana 214 that cartwheeled on its wingtip leaving the wings intact (when crash landing at SFO).
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
MacGuffin
Mac Guffin 1
I'm very surprised both gears didn't shear off with the rate of descent. Forget the flare, the gear was already gone.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
darjr26
darjr26 5
So you’re not buying the “frangible” wing design? You’re right about the new 321XLR or whatever they are calling it. It’s going to be a flying tanker with plenty of fuel stored directly under the passenger seats. I also can’t help but laugh about how much safer passenger cabins are. When American took delivery of their first 737-800s they were configured with 144 seats. By reducing seat pitch, which makes it more difficult to evacuate the aircraft, and using slimmer seats, American’s 737s now seat 172 passengers with the same number of exit doors. Some airlines are stuffing even more seats into their 737s. I don’t know what caused the accident but I don’t think design features played any part in the accident or the successful evacuation.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 2
While personal motor vehicles and race cars are designed with crumple zones or parts that shed to dissipate energy during crashes, planes have so few things that can break off outside of the wings, tail and horizontal stabilizers, but that is not really a lot if one honestly looks at it. One would expect the fuselage to hold together, but that is not always the case in airplane crashes.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report
wnhanna
wnhanna 2
Not that it would be designable, but I wonder what percentage of weight is provided at landing, by each wing, tail assembly. As that wing broke away some percentage of potential energy also left the aircraft.
Reply ↓•Permalink•Parent•Report

Login

Forgot password?
Don't have an account? Register now (free) for customized features, flight alerts, and more!
Join FlightAware
Did you know that FlightAware flight tracking is supported by advertising?
You can help us keep FlightAware free by allowing ads from FlightAware.com. We work hard to keep our advertising relevant and unobtrusive to create a great experience. It's quick and easy to whitelist ads on FlightAware or please consider our premium accounts.
Dismiss